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More Time for Learning!
KKA chats with Madeleine Bebe und Paul Collard about learning and the needs for international exchange.
KKA:
From 11 to 15 September 2010, the youth symposium “Arts for Education!” took place. It was attended by about 100 young people between the ages of 16 and 20 from 33 European countries and Israel, and the participants discussed their expectations and wishes with regard to cultural education. Madeleine, what role does cultural education play in your life?
Madeleine Bebe:
At the symposium, we talked about how we learn about arts in school. Everyone said: “Yes, we learn about traditional art, but we want more. We want to know what is going on now. And we want to know about different cultures.” All I have learned was “World War II” or traditional art, but we want to know what is going on now. I don’t know anything about arts and culture of Eastern European countries, for example. We don’t really learn about it, only the Western countries. We all agreed that we want to participate in more exchange programmes that are affordable, because most exchange programmes are far too expensive. This is what we talked about.
Paul Collard:
What’s your cultural life like, Madeleine? Do you play a musical instrument, do you dance, do you read…?
Madeleine Bebe:
I used to play an instrument, but then I stopped. I like to go to museums and to encounter different cultures. I like to go to a concert, an African concert or something different.
Paul Collard:
And what about your parents? What do they do as far as culture is concerned?
Madeleine Bebe:
My mama is an art teacher, so she knows what’s going on. This is why it’s easy for me to get access to special events that most people do not know about it.
KKA:
So, could I say the upshot is that young people would like to have much more cultural education?
Madeleine Bebe:
Sure.
KKA:
Okay. What does that mean for young people? More hours of instruction in school, more subjects?
Madeleine Bebe:
It means more arts in school, but not being under pressure. We also all agreed that arts classes or sports classes or music classes shouldn’t be graded in school because this should be fun for the students. Everything that is graded – at the end of the day, you always feel this certain kind of pressure.
KKA:
You have engaged in discussions with experts regarding ways of implementing cultural education. According to the Mercator Foundation – I saw this in the press release – your project ideas were submitted in “sweet packages”. What does that mean exactly? And was it successful?
Madeleine Bebe:
We had a little performance, because during the days everyone took part in different workshops that we selected before we went there. And then we all talked about arts in school all the time, so we said: okay, what do we really want? What can we tell the experts that we want to change? So we wrote down everything on a little paper and then we put it in these sweets. (laughing)
KKA:
What do you think? Was it a good idea?
Paul Collard:
It was a good idea! I liked it! So you think differently about it, and you get engaged with it. I think it is very important, when you’re trying to communicate ideas to people, that you don’t just think about the idea but that you think about the presentation of the idea and how to re-engage with, as I put it, “worth”.
KKA:
What is the benefit of such one-time youth conferences? A pleasant time together is one thing, but what about results? What are you doing with the results? Was it only a good time…?
Madeleine Bebe:
Of course it was a good time! But we also talked about the differences between the countries. First we realised that we all looked the same, our clothes were all the same. No one was really special, no one brought their own culture. Globalisation makes this possible. We learned about how people live in other countries. Everywhere it’s similar. People from Israel said: “It’s very normal that it is hot and we have air conditioning everywhere.”
KKA:
Where does culture encounter young people?
Paul Collard:
I think that a lot of people responsible for managing cultural programmes don’t spend enough time talking to young people! And I think that it was very important that when the Mercator Foundation was organising this big “Arts for Education” conference, they decided that they wanted young people contributing to the discussion. Most of us have had years to talk about it, if you see what I mean, and therefore the idea of starting the youth symposium a couple of days earlier, so that the young people would have a chance to sit and think and formulate their ideas, so that they were in a much better position to engage with the adults directly, was very important. I think that so often, when we’re trying to talk to people to build their capacity, we fail to have the conversation; we assume that it is going to be fine. That was very important. The result was that when we had young people on the podium, contributing to the discussion, they were very, very impressive. They had three, four days to formulate their arguments, to listen to other people, to know what they said. And then the adults had a really hard time. What’s the consequence? Well, I hope that the adults went home thinking: we must think about this now. The point that you were making, Madeleine, and that was major in the conference, about young people wanting to decide what art they want to look at, art across a wide cross-section of cultures, from all different countries – and also wanting to look at more contemporary work and not what was happening in the past – is a very difficult political issue. Because a lot of European countries are currently governed by parties of the right, middle right… and on the whole, they believe that the priority should be on teaching the old history of the country and making you learn it. I think a lot about young people, and although there’s no objection to learning some history, it’s just not everything.
KKA:
Who takes responsibility for cultural education? The politicians? Schools, parents?
Madeleine Bebe:
I would say: the politicians. Because they make the rules for how it should be and they tell the teachers what they have to teach. So, all I heard all the time in school was: “Okay, I cannot do this. We don’t have enough time.” This was all I heard. And then, of course, also the parents, but if I have to study all the time at home for my exams, then my mama can tell me what she wants, but I don’t have the time or the energy to go to a museum when I am studying for a test next week.
Paul Collard:
I think that’s right. I think parents have responsibility and a lot of them exercise the responsibility to engage their children in cultural activities all the way through. And that happens in a lot of families. And obviously it is happening in your family, Madeleine. And I don’t think the state should pretend it has to take more over, if you see what I mean; engaging in cultural activities as a family is one of the fundamental ways that you build a family! It’s doing those things together, sharing those experiences, talking about music, listening to music, sharing books and so. That’s what builds families, and builds strong families. It’s really important. But: If you come from a background where you do not have cultural experiences yourself, how can you even do that with your children? You’re going to need help. And secondly: Where are your children? They spend so much time in school. So it’s a really good place to start. Who influences what happens in school? It’s politicians, definitely, and you are absolutely right to say so, Ursula. They decide which measures schools will be judged by. And if they say: “We will judge the schools on this basis: we will give them the objective of offering a great cultural education”, then the schools will do great cultural education. But if they never mention cultural education, if they say “we’re going to give you science education as your objective”, then the schools will do science. The really complicated thing about education is that – unlike anything else in life – the client and the consumer are different, because the consumer of education is you! It is your job. But you are not the client. The client is the voter. Because the voter chooses the politicians. Now, in England, I assume it’s only about 22 % of households that have any children at home. So, most of the voters have no children. Their children have grown up or they do not have any children – and yet they decide what children should get in school. And a lot of those adults are in no position to know what should go on in school. And lots of them have not experienced any of that in school themselves. So they have very strange ideas of what education is about. But: they choose. They think about it from the perspective of the window and see boys going down the street with long hair and jeans and they say “wow – school, stop that!” (laughing). That’s a real problem! And that’s why it comes back to the conference and why it is so important to have young people there. Because cultural education is about young people. It’s about them and what works for them – and we have got to talk to them.
KKA:
In the discussion, one often has the feeling that children and young people can only be creative if plenty of funding is available for activities such as workshops and so on. Isn’t this getting out of hand? If one talks to young people, they often find this hard to understand. One young person said – and I quote: “If you feel like doing something, you can do a lot yourself; you don’t have to always have things offered to you. When you work something out for yourself, it often has more value for you than if someone shows you what to do.” Isn’t the main thing just to give the young people enough freedom to be creative? Madeleine, you said: “I have no time to go to the museum, because I have to learn for my test”…
Madeleine Bebe:
The freedom to be creative is very important! But it is also helpful for students to have some kind of structure, if they attend a workshop, for example, so they really know what to do. Because if an artist comes to my school and tells me: “okay, do this”… then at the end, we see the results. I don’t really know where to start, I need some kind of help to do so. I am still learning, I need some kind of advice, someone who puts me onto the right track.
Paul Collard:
I think to get in touch with the arts, you need some level of mediation. You know, you stick pages on the wall and if you say there are pages on the wall, you know you are in a museum. It’s not going to work like that. There is a more complicated process in the beginning to understand what is going on. And it’s not about telling people what to do. It is about drawing the person out. And a lot of the time it’s about getting people to believe in their own responses. So if you take something like very contemporary classical music, it can sound very strange to people. And it makes you feel very uncomfortable. And it gives you strange emotions. One of the things that is often an eye-opener for young people is to say actually: “That’s what the composer intended. It is those emotions you are feeling that the composer wanted you to explore.” A lot of young people think, I am not enjoying this, therefore I can’t be understanding it. And it’s just a simple thing, to say: “Actually I am not understanding it. What is the intention?” And then getting to understand the artist’s intention and looking at it and your emotional responses and not being afraid of the range of your emotions. You are just like – light opera. My father-in-law often comes to Vienna to the festival in the summer, and the emotional range of light opera is about THAT (gesture) – and that is the emotional range he is comfortable with – but: it’s a disappointing life, if you can only live in that part of your life. What art does is allow you to explore the whole of what you are in an extraordinary way – which makes you be much more full of life. In the early stages, that needs mediation – once you have found it, you build this up through the rest of your life.
KKA:
On YouTube, via Facebook etc., you often see simple and highly creative videos by young people who made them just for fun in their free time. Do adults try too hard to make the creativity of children and young people an educational matter? This is a part of the question I asked before. Kids or young people see videos and say “well, it’s good music, it’s a fun video, and now I’ll make the same content in my way with my community in my life”. Again my question: on the one hand, institutions offer creative workshops for young people to get the knowledge they need to make movies, but often booked by schools or parents. But young people are doing it for themselves. So are we trying too hard to make it an educational matter?
Madeleine Bebe:
Some of these videos are great! But it is only for people to watch for amusement. Afterwards nothing really happens with them. I mean, some people became famous with it, but in the States and not really in Europe. Yes, it is fun for them, but it is not something I would really do.
KKA:
For example, you and the other young people had the opportunity to exchange ideas through an internet platform. But nothing happened…
Madeleine Bebe:
Yes, I know... We talked about exchanging ideas on certain topics, but we just talked about it. But I realised that not many people really get involved. It’s like: I always commented on everything because I was so excited about it, but later I found out that some of the others didn’t really want to come, they didn’t really know why they were there. Because they go to a certain kind of school and everyone in the class takes part in a project once. But to me, because I come from a different kind of life, I was really excited about it and I tried to really participate in it, but after a while I found out: “okay, not so many feel the same”. Many people just sign up for it but don’t really want to participate.
Paul Collard:
People have creativity needs! But can they do something with it? If you take Mozart, for instance, and say : “Oh, this is a fantastic talent,” you are speaking about a fantastic talent whose dad gave him a violin when he was one and was playing it fluently by the age of three and was writing his own music by the age of six and so by the time he was 18 he was good at this stuff. And then he was very, very creative as well and it all came together. All known skills, the experience, the understanding, the ways of looking at the world, can be developed in people. The creativity is special to that person. But how they use it is something you welcome developing. I remember two years ago, I was in Graz for a conference, and there was an interesting man who worked in a video workshop for children, in a town in the north of Austria. And he showed us a film. The film was made by a nine-year-old boy. A nine-year-old boy who was obsessed with “Lord of the Rings”; you know this movie?
KKA:
I know it, of course! It was from the U19 Prix Ars Electronica in Linz. I saw that video. Great!
Paul Collard:
Yes, absolutely. (laughing) That’s exactly who he was. The boy had read the book only in German at some point, and then when the film came out his parents said he was too young and they wouldn’t take him to the film. But at the same time, as it happens, McDonald’s did a promotion on “Lord of the Rings“ and he ate a lot of kids’ meals, “Happy Meals”, so he got little plastic characters. When he got the little plastic characters he made his own film of Lord of the Rings, with his little McDonald’s characters! And they showed us some extracts from the film – and it was brilliant! It was so creative and so clever. But who introduced him to Lord of the Rings? Who gave him the camera? Where did he practice to be able to do that? There was the institution Ars Electronica. And without that, he would have never made that film. And therefore you can’t look at the film and say: “Oh, they’ll do it anyway”. Every time you go to one of those films, you will find behind that a parent to teach, equipment and all sorts of things that have made it possible. My experience is that millions of young people could be doing that if we gave them the opportunity.
KKA:
Paul, do children or young people participate in the development of projects in Great Britain? How do you involve the persons for whom the projects are intended in their conception? How does exchange take place?
Paul Collard:
See, it’s terribly easy, because young people have lots of ideas and they want to use them. And mainly it’s the adults that are holding them back. So I will give you an example from a school that we did quite recently: Schools apply to be in our programme because they have a problem, not because they want to do an artwork. And there was this primary school in northern England*: they applied because they were worried that their children weren’t making progress – but they weren’t getting the children interested and therefore the children weren’t learning so much. So we suggested giving them a big project to run themselves. The school wanted to develop a new classroom and they said: “Right. We will give it to the children and let them do it.” So the children all got together – these were five-to-ten-year-olds – and then had a big discussion about what they wanted to do. Some thought that they could create a beach, some thought that they could build a castle. But the idea that they went with is that they would buy a full passenger airplane and that they would park it in the front yard and they would have an extra classroom. So then they divided all the responsibilities amongst themselves: Year 6, which had the oldest children, had to go to the municipality to get planning permission, because if you park an airplane permanently in front of your school you need planning permission. (laughing) So they went, filled in all the forms at the offices and so on. Year 5 had to find the airplane and they found one on eBay! They bought this big propeller airplane and they had to transport it to the school. Year 4 was responsible for the interior design, because it had to be turned into a classroom. They went on the Internet and they found the details of the man that designed the interiors of David Beckham’s and Lewis Hamilton’s Lear jets, Howard Guy, who is very, very rich – and they contacted him. And the kids said: We bought this airplane and we want to turn it into a classroom, but we don’t know how to do that because it’s very specialised work – and he did the designs for them for free. And then they had this wonderful airplane which has been converted into a classroom parked right at the school. The thing is: Sure they would do things like that if you gave them the chance. The problem is not their having the ideas, the initiative, the organisation or anything else. The problem is, the adults won’t let them do anything.
KKA.
This example demonstrates the true spirit of creative thinking – even making the impossible possible. So the point of your concept is to get young people into it, to get them involved, to make them feel: it’s their project.
Paul Collard:
Indeed. I mean the thing that teachers say to me most often about children who have worked on projects that we’ve done, is: “I had NO idea my children could do that.” And it is the saddest thing, because you think: “Oh, why didn’t you know they can do that?” Because children and young people actually perform to your expectations. All the evidence shows that what you expect from children is what you get. That’s what you see happening in families with different expectations. So I am sure that your parents (Madeleine) want to see things coming from you. So you have done that! But in the house down the road, someone else says: “That’s as far as you want to go?” – and that’s as far as they go….
KKA:
How does exchange take place?
Paul Collard:
Most of our programmes are going on in schools, because that’s what we have particularly focused on. So it’s IN school and it’s working, with young people, creative professionals and teachers working together… so that everybody has a role to play.
KKA:
At the START conference in Duisburg, they informed us that networks are often measured by the quantity of contacts rather than by their quality. This is a mistake, they told us, according to an increasing number of twitters and bloggers. For example: Two experts had a discussion. One had 20,000 followers, the other one 2,000 followers. The expert with 20,000 followers said that it was always the same 400 followers who participated in discussion on her blog. This is 2% of the 20,000. The other expert explained that she really tried hard to establish good networking and she got the really involved people for her blog. So, if she had a question or infos about a project, 20% of her followers answered – which also makes 400. An argument in favour of “quality networking”?
Paul Collard:
Exactly! (laughing) That is the case in all cultural education work. It’s the depth in quality and experience. Research has shown that long-term intense participation is what really makes the difference. And that, to me, is probably the definition of quality: that you really do it deeply, properly, fairly, and that’s what makes the difference.
KKA:
Paul, at the Alpbach Technology Forum you said: “The Internet is the most powerful learning instrument we have created. But if you don’t know what learning is, it is no use to you.” What do you mean by “digital vs. social exclusion”?
Paul Collard:
What we’re saying is that it is apparent from research that digital and social exclusion are the same. But social exclusion – I do not know how to phrase it differently – is also a group of exclusions which come together. There is social exclusion, health exclusion, digital exclusion and educational exclusion and cultural exclusion, and it tends to be the same people. I live in the northeast of England in a city called Newcastle. It is an old working-class city, where they used to build ships, make steel and dig coal. It has stayed a very wide community because new jobs have been created and there has been considerable immigration. But it has very, very poor health statistics. The people in the centre of the city actually have between 15 and 20 years shorter life spans than the more affluent people on the outskirts. There has been a huge investment in the health infrastructure there. They have got two teaching hospitals, they have got great general practitioners – and it’s all for free; anybody can go to these doctors. But there has been no change in the health status, because the people who need it don’t use it. People like me think this health infrastructure is fantastic! I can get to the hospital and see good doctors and they fix everything. So I am getting healthier and healthier and people like me are living longer and longer – but the people it is meant for aren’t using it. And these same people are not taking advantage of educational opportunities. What we keep saying is that the problem you find in most European states now – what the governments are facing – is not a failure of supply, but a failure of demand! The people we want to reach to change the social divisions in society aren’t being reached. Therefore we need to look at these problems together – because health, education, culture, digital infrastructure are all encountering the same problems. And one of the problems is that government departments are responsible for various bits. So your health ministry is worrying over why the people aren’t getting healthier. And the education ministry wonders why they’re not getting educated. And it’s all part of the same problem. Lots of different people are trying to tackle it, but without really coming to terms with it.
KKA:
I had a look at your presentation in Alpbach: children and young people from socially disadvantaged groups are often online, but mainly to play computer games and not so much to educate themselves through new technologies… What is your experience in this context?
Madeleine Bebe:
I know that most people go on the Internet just to play games, “Counterstrike” or “World of Warcraft” and so on – but this is not what it is really made for. I think the Internet brings the world together. Because you can find people from the other side of the world on the Internet. And I think that this is amazing. But for just playing games – this is not the reason why we have Internet. This is stupid.
Paul Collard:
That is what I am saying about this technology: It is a very powerful instrument if you know how to learn! But if you don’t know how to learn, it’s no use to you at all. Even to do an intelligent search on Google needs a little understanding of how to go about it. That process – in the sense that Google stimulates us along the lines of: “I need to answer this question. How will I go and find an answer to my question?” – that’s learning. And the children who aren’t doing this don’t understand what learning is. I was talking to one of our ministers and he said: “Well, you know where the school is failing, where it has problems, you know the exams and so on.” But all that I find is that there is too much teaching and not enough learning! It is just teachers going: teach-teach-teach-teach – but actually you need time to digest, think, work around things; then you can get there.
KKA:
That’s the freedom I talked about before. Joseph August Lux said: “All education is the result of one’s own outlook, of experience, exploration and creation, not of merely learning by rote and reading.”
Madeleine Bebe:
Oh yes! My problem when I was in school was that they’d tell me: Read this paper. But if I read it, I didn’t get it. I just didn’t know what I was reading. Then I’d sit at home and just read and take my time and was relaxed – and then I knew what I was reading. With the Internet, there’s also the problem that if you go on Google – then you always end up somewhere else. This is my problem when I go on the Internet. And I use another tab, and I research farther… and in the end I know much more about everything, but not really what I have to find (laughing).
KKA:
And that’s what the young man I mentioned earlier said to me: “We need freedom to be creative. Give us something to find out. And perhaps if I have questions, need instruments, I’ll come and ask you. But give us the freedom to find solutions, to be creative.” Of course: you are searching for a word and then suddenly you’re reading the history of Burma on Google. (laughing)
Paul Collard:
Exactly.” (laughing)
Madeleine Bebe:
But it also sounds interesting – so I also read through it… (laughing)
Paul Collard:
You are constantly learning, expanding your mind… discovering new things… and that’s what learning’s all about.
KKA:
Next question: How can we use such comprehensive networks as the Internet for education?
Paul Collard:
The freedom that it offers is so important! But I think so is focussing on those children and young people who are having real difficulties learning and understanding what learning is, and being able to find ways to unlock their learning. It’s hard… and it involves a lot of one-to-one activity. But the great thing about the Internet is that the other 29 people in a class can be on the Internet! You just let them do their own learning. And I think that if you give students more freedom to pursue their own lines of research, then the teacher has more time to spend with the children who are struggling.
KKA:
Okay. What should we teach?
Paul Collard:
We need to divide this into two categories: The European Union did a big survey of all the education systems in Europe. And they say that all education systems in Europe teach the same thing. Which is to say that they teach the mother language, another language, maths and some science, a bit of arts, history, entrepreneurship. But: What they are all coming to understand is that success is based on what they call key competences. And the competences include being emotionally literate, asking challenging questions, making confident decisions, reflecting critically, taking and managing risks, being resilient, working effectively in teams! One of the things that employers say all the time is that they are searching for people who can work in teams; that’s really important! The ability to collaborate, to find shared solutions is fundamental to success in the working world. There is a word for this in education and it’s called “cheating”. (laughing) You know, if you are collaborating with somebody else, to jointly come up with an answer – the teacher demands: “What’s going on here?” There is this set of competences that we need to be focussing on developing. But from our research, we have learned that those competences are a type of behaviour – and behaviour is learned by imitation. I can teach you French – but you learn to be French in France and by imitating French people. (laughing) And if you think that these competences are behaviour and they are learned by imitation, then you look at the teachers and you say: “I’m full of questions, I want to work in teams, want to be emotional, literate!
KKA:
So, we have heard about the skills needed to be successful in the 21st century – not only for the economy, but also for oneself. Hearing about these tools, it seems that the schools should be focussing much more on developing independence and competences in children and young people rather than conveying knowledge. Do you think this is what they are doing?
Paul Collard:
No. (laughing)
Madeleine Bebe:
I think the schools, especially my former school, concentrate too much on knowledge and on young people succeeding in school, on being good. I had to be good, I had to know a lot. But I think it would be much more important for the schools to make sure that I develop my personality. And I don’t have to learn everything in detail. I get the sense of it, but I think it would be far much more important to concentrate on each individual’s personality. To make sure that they are not afraid to speak in front of a big group and that they are happy about themselves. And not put them under pressure all the time because this is frustrating.
Paul Collard:
You see, you are good in all these things, Madeleine. So how did you end up being good in that? You have got a strong personality, you are in front in a heavy conversation, you have got lots of ideas…
Madeleine Bebe:
I think I have got the right genes.
Paul Collard:
But is your mother like that?
Madeleine Bebe:
Yes. And my father, too.
Paul Collard:
You see, that’s my point. You have learned to be like that by imitating your parents. And if a person’s parents are not like that, it’s a big problem. And that’s what goes wrong. And therefore the substitute is school; the schools have to become more like that. Teachers have to become more like that. Because those are the schools that can really make you successful. I have a daughter and she was asking me to help her with something in her mathematics homework and I was wracking my brain because it was the first time in 40 years that I had done that type of maths. And I was thinking: Why did I do that? Why was it so important? Why did I have to know this to get my maths qualification? I have never used it since. In all those 40 years! And there was a huge amount of knowledge! We have a terrible secretary of state for education in the UK, Michael Gove; he always starts his speech: “I was in a school the other day, it was a secondary school, and I asked the children, the students: “Who was the British general at the battle of Waterloo?” – and do you know: NONE of them could tell me the answer”. But I think: “Why is that interesting?” Their heads are full of knowledge they’ll never use the rest of their lives. What did you archive that for? Because that has taken up all the time they could have spent doing something useful.
KKA:
They should work like lawyers do: learn where they need to search for answers. So which competences need to be strengthened in teachers? Which competences are really necessary if they are to help young people find their way in life and be quick enough to solve the problems they may encounter?
Madeleine Bebe:
I had this ONE teacher (laughing) when I was eleven and she was great. And she taught me really a lot. She was organised. She came to class and she was present. Every time, she knew what she was doing, what she was going to do that day. All the other years I was missing her. When I had a problem and asked my class teacher a question – then he did not know. All he said was: Go down to the office and ask. I think it is important to have someone who gives you the feeling: Okay, I can rely on this person, I can ask this person… someone you can talk to and you know he or she is going to help you and is there for you. I think it is very important to have such a person. You know you are on the same level and that the teachers don’t look down on you. I think this is the most important thing.
KKA:
At the European level there are numerous networks and ideas. How are these transposed to the national level? You always find the same people in the same network meetings who say: “You are right! You are right again!” Networks – are there other instruments to bring all the ideas and all of these numerous networks back from the European to the national level? What do you think?
Paul Collard:
The European Union has decided that education and culture are done by the member states and not by the European Union. And this hugely reduces what the EU can do. The EU can do research, can look for and share information between member states. But what has become very clear to me, for a number of reasons, is that the member states think their differences are defined in education and culture. The health services are not different and the laws aren’t different, the cards aren’t different. What’s different about Germany and France? It’s the education and culture! That’s the thing that’s different. And therefore the member states are very protective of it, because it justifies having a state at all. Because actually, if that wasn’t different, then being on the same road, having the same health system etc. – what’s the point in having member states? – which is a good question (laughing). They say it’s terribly important because we, the member states, do education and culture. Now, I do a lot of travelling these days, and although the education systems are very different as systems, shockingly different – because there is no logic to it – the challenges are exactly the same. And therefore there should be far more cooperation between European states in dealing with the problems. That fact that in Germany you go to school in the morning and in Austria you decide which secondary school you are going to at the age of eight or nine – if you see what I mean – and that kind of thing. In Britain we have got comprehensive education and therefore it doesn’t make any difference whether there are exemptions in small areas – but generally everybody goes to the same secondary school. Those issues are not as big as the fact of failure of demand that we were talking about. The fact that a lot of us are coping with very different cultures coming into our cities, with very different attitudes and all sorts of things, how to integrate them into an educational system, respect who they are, who you are … and so on. Those are all the big problems and we are all facing the same ones. But we never talk to each other about them, really. A few officials get together. What I think we need to do is to follow up with much more detailed support. That’s one of the things that CCE [Creativity, Culture and Education, supported by Arts Council England] is doing, increasingly working across Europe… actually being able to spend three or four months in Amsterdam looking at problems in Amsterdam in detail. And bringing all the experiences from other countries in order to share. So I think we need some things beyond the networks; we need to really focus and share information. And the networks at the moment probably don’t have the resources to really give the support that’s necessary.
KKA:
A good final point! Thank you.
* Kingsland Primary School in Bucknall, Stoke-on-Trent experienced a “world first” when a commercial aeroplane arrived on site to become a new learning space with a difference.
Madeleine Bebe, who was born in 1991, spent the school year 2008/2009 at an American High School. She received her Austrian secondary school diploma in 2010 and is now studying law in Vienna.
Paul Collard is Chief Executive at Creativity, Culture and Education (CCE). Since 2005 he has been the National Director of “Creative Partnerships”, a programme established by the British government to foster creativity in the schools.
